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Tuesday, 19 August 2014

Twelve-By-Seventy-Five Ltd: not for me thanks!



This is yet another recently formed wine investment company: Twelve-By-Seventy-Five Ltd was set up on 24th January 2014. Its two present directors – 27-year-old Sultan Mahmood Rashid and 29-year-old Riccardo Tullio De'nardis were appointed on 8th April 2014.  

 
'We are experienced wine merchants & brokers'
'We have firmly established contacts with French négociants'

For a company formed in January 2014 they have gained experience and contacts with remarkable speed...  
 
'Fine wine is an excellent alternative investments.
'The fine wine is booming picking the right wines 
gives significant opportunities for incredible tax-free returns.' 

Fine wine, especially Bordeaux, is not booming as prices have been dropping since 2011. 

Incorrect claims of fine wine investment is free from capital gains tax.
No mention of inheritance tax  

 'Its official Classification (Appellation d'Controlee) 
dates back to 1855 at Napoleon 3rd's request.'

Twelve-By-Seventy-Five Ltd confuse Appellation Contrôlée (started in 1936) with the 1855 classification. 

'We store our wine in London City Bond's (LCB) 
bonded warehouse: Vinothèque in Barking' 

Rather alarming – LCB's Vinothèque is in Burton-on-Trent around 150 miles north-west of Barking! 

 How much are the storage charges? Our strong relationship 
with London City Bond (LCB) gives us 
highly competitive storage rates with two options: 

'highly competitive rates'!

Sultan Mahmood Rashid and Riccardo Tullio De'nardis claim a 'strong relationship with London City Bond' but Twelve-By-Seventy-Five Ltd has no company account at LCB. The 'highly competitive storage rates' claimed by Twelve-By-Seventy-Five are LCB's standard rates from private customers:

LCB's standard charges for private account holders 


The last thing the fine wine trade needs is another 'wine investment' company making false claims. I'll certainly avoid Sultan Mahmood Rashid and Riccardo Tullio De'nardis new Twelve-By-Seventy-Five Ltd, which I hope will be both short-lived and unsuccessful.   





 




36 comments:

  1. Do you not think it rather cynical that the wine blog www.12x75.com has now set up this commercial company to sell wine under virtually the same name brand name?

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    1. Su: Thanks but to the best of my knowledge there is no connection between www.12x75.com and Twelve-By-Seventy-Five. It is possible, of course, that those who set up Twelve-By-Seventy-Five were attracted by having 'virtually the same name brand name' as a successful wine blog.

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    2. No connection between 12x75.com and this Twelve-By-Seventy-Five business.

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  2. 1. You are absolutely right with us being a newly established company only being incorporated since January 24th 2014. Sultan Mahmood Rashid and Riccardo Tullio De’nardis were both appointed directors on the 8th of April. “investdrinks understands that Mahmood Rashid used to work for the now bust Canary Wharf Vintners Ltd”. This assumption is completely incorrect as the firm Sultan Mahmood Rashid used to represent is the still going and successful Capital Vintners ltd and so was Riccardo Tullio De’nardis. Sultan Mahmood Rashid and Riccardo De’nardis has had no other involvement with any other brokerage besides Capital Vintners.

    2. Creating your portfolio: ‘we are experienced wine merchants & brokers’ ‘We have firmly established contacts with French negociants’ – Both Sultan and Riccardo started in wine in July and September 2012, since this time of being in the industry we have both gained WSET qualifications and visited Bordeaux in order to be able to give the best recommendation’s to our clients. Since our time in the industry we have built relationships with UK merchants, Liv-Ex and French negociants. So we can only take your comment of ‘gaining experience and contacts with remarkable speed’ as a compliment.

    Fine wine is an excellent alternative investment: ‘Fine wine, especially Bordeaux, is not booming as prices have been since 2011’. As you may or may not be aware fine wine can be an excellent alternative investment given you buy the right wine at the right price. Some wines can have an excellent rate of return for example; Dom Perignon 1998 has risen 42% in the last year according to Liv-ex. Now if that’s not a good return I cannot understand what you might deem as being a good return.

    4. Incorrect claims of fine wine investment is free from capital gains tax, No mention of inheritance tax – We have re-worded on our site how we portray this to the public and we have now quoted a quote from the telegraph. As stated by the 'Telegraph' "Wine investment is not liable to capital gains tax (CGT), because of a tax regulation called the "Wasting asset rule". This decrees that if an asset has a life of 50 years or more no CGT is payable on it". I suggest if this is still incorrect you possibly right a comment to the Telegraph.

    5. Bordeaux classification – Once again we may have got this slightly incorrect and we are now currently undergoing changes to this piece of text. As you can imagine given the amount of detail on our site and our time of being established we cannot expect to get everything 100% spot on and we appreciate the time you have taken out to proof read our website, changes will be amended accordingly. Please feel free to keep us up to date with anything you feel we may need to amend.

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    1. Thank you for your response. I have removed the reference to Canary Wharf Vintners Ltd.

      I'm surprised that you think a newspaper article is a sufficient source to advise your putative investors on taxation. I suggest that Customs & Excise is a rather better source and you will find that the possition is less straighforward than you suggest. Incidentally a 'wasting asset' is one that has an expected life of less than 50 years not more than 50 years.

      You make claims of expertise that you demonstrate you do not have. Mixing appellation contrôlée with the 1855 classification is an elementary howler.

      'our time of being established we cannot expect to get everything 100% spot on' – precisely my point!

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    2. At the risk of being a little bit pedantic...

      "Fine wine is an excellent alternative investment: ‘Fine wine, especially Bordeaux, is not booming as prices have been since 2011’. As you may or may not be aware fine wine can be an excellent alternative investment given you buy the right wine at the right price. Some wines can have an excellent rate of return for example; Dom Perignon 1998 has risen 42% in the last year according to Liv-ex. Now if that’s not a good return I cannot understand what you might deem as being a good return."

      Vintage Champagne has been one of the few areas of the investment-grade fine wine market to generate attractive returns over the short term. Therefore I'm not surprised you singled out the returns on Dom Perignon. Look at the rest of the market, particularly Bordeaux as Jim said, and you'll find that prices have been falling for several years. No one knows if we have reached the bottom just yet.

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  3. 6. LCB, Vinotheque Barking – Again this is simply typo and we appreciate you alarming us on the matter and changes have been made and in addition we have put the LCB, tilbury address too where our Company VINE account with LIV-EX (1275) is.

    7. Highly competitive storage rates – we understand that the rates are standard rates to the general public, we may have mis-worded how we portrayed this and this has been amended.

    8. No Company account at LCB – We have two accounts with LCB (LCB Vinotheque (FIV002) and LCB Tilbury Vine (1275), Unlike a lot of other companies we decided that an umbrella account is an absolute NO GO ZONE, therefore when a client comes on board with us we send them an application form for LCB to set their own accounts up in their own name, so they have 100% control over their accounts. Our two accounts are simply to store our stock in bond and our vine account is to trade wine on the exchange (LIV-EX) as we are affiliated members. Below is an email from LCB Vinotheque; We are more than happy to provide you proof of our accounts.

    As we are trying to do things very differently to how things have been done in the past we do not appreciate your libel and defamatory comments against Twelve-By-Seventy-Five ltd. We can understand what you’re trying to do and appreciate people like yourselves in the industry as you make the public and trade aware of what to be careful of. However given us being a young established company we can understand we are up against a lot of market stigma, which for us is extremely helpful to building our company and making it stronger. We can only appreciate your attention on us and we will invite you to continue to keep a close eye on our activity as I am sure over the months/years you will be very surprised that your initial assumptions will be proved to be incorrect. Both Sultan and Riccardo would like to invite you to our premises so you can see how we conduct business. Thanks for your comments.

    Sultan Rashid - Director
    Riccardo De'Nardis - Director

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    1. Sultan Rashid and Riccardo De'Nardis:

      6) Vinotheque Barking is not a simple typo – Berking, Burking are typos but Barking is not a typo of Burton. Good try but no cigar! Another example of your basic lack of knowledge about the wine trade and the fine wine trade in particular.

      7) As you acknowledge this wording was highly misleading.

      8) I am entirely correct that you do not have a company account with LCB. The Vinotheque (FIV002) is a private account and the LCB Tilbury is a sub-account for Vine International. I do, however, agree that investors should set up their own private accounts.

      Apart from incorrectly suggesting that Sultan had worked for Canarf Wharf Vintners Ltd, there is nothing defamatory or libellous in my post, which does highlight that you lack the knowledge and expertise to advise putative investors to part with their value savings.

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  4. I am a Client of Twelve-By-Seventy-Five. This is clearly fabricated information you have used here. Twelve-By-Seventy-Five not only DOES have accounts at LCB but your information on where these Brokers have come from is completely wrong too. You should consider getting your information correct before pursuing your personal vendetta against companies that are actually the good guys.

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    1. Anon. Although your loyalty may be praiseworthy Twelve-By-Seventy-Five Ltd does not have a company account at LCB. Please see my comment above.

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  5. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  6. Twelve By Seventy Five have been selling a non-vintage Champagne called Bauget Jouette Rose at quite a high case price. Can anyone tell me if this is an investment-grade wine, as I cannot find it advertised on any wine merchant website and I would like some information as to whether this is a good investment opportunity. Can anyone help?

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    1. Anon. What price are they charging please?

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    2. £1000 per 6x75. It seemed like a high price for a non-vintage Champagne, that's why I was interested in more information.

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    3. Anon. If you look at wine-searcher you will find that six bottles of the Bauget Jouette Rosé can be bought from Experience Wine in Cornwall for £191.70 including sales tax.

      I assume that the Twelve By Seventy Five is in bond, so the price on the street would be substantially higher than £1000.

      If Twelve By Seventy Five really is trying to sell this wine for £1000 per six bottles as an investment then this is a very old con!

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    4. That's extortion! Shame on you Twelve by Seventy Five

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  7. Anon. Apparently the family have been making Champagne since 1822. No reason to think that this is an investment grade wine - very few Champagnes are.

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  8. Dear Mr Budd and Annon,

    The only Champagne we have been selling for investment is Dom Perignon 1998 (P2) @ £600 per 3 x 75cl, we understand we are not the cheapest on the market with this offer but we are not far off.

    It is true that we have Bauget Jouette Rose on our books, however this has never been sold as an investment and is predominately for consumption only out of bond. You will see this Champagne listed as consumption on our website in the next coming weeks.

    We are also selling Bauget Jouette Rose for £166 per case of 6 and not £1000 for per case of 6. If an invoice has been sent out it should or should of read 6 x 6 x 75cl Cases @ £1000 and only for consumption.

    Apologies to Annon if you have received the wrong information, please feel free to contact us so that we can rectify the matter for you.

    Many Thanks
    Sultan - CEO of Twelve-By-Seventy-Five

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  9. The invoice didn't quote VAT or Duty so I assume it was for bond. And it was £1000 for just 6 bottles, not 36 so you are incorrect. Jim's comment about the value of this champagne is worrying. Nothing about consumption was mentioned, I thought Twelve By Seventy Five was an investment company.

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  10. Are we aware if this company has set up a London City Bond account now? I have been contacted by them to purchase my wine.

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  11. Anon. Thanks. I'm afraid I don't know but can check. If I were you I would avoid this company.

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  12. Thanks Jim,
    They had made quite an attractive offer, but I am quite sceptical due to age of company and the info on this thread. I'll hold off for now. I'd appreciate their LCB account status when you have a moment.

    Thank you.

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  13. Anon. Could you let me have details about your Auntie's transaction please? Thanks. Jim

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  14. A third party approached me for details of my wine portfolio which I gave them as they would get me a valuation. They got the valuation " by forwarding my portfolio to 80 wine companies trading on LiveX. The single valuation returned to me was from twelve by seventy five who were offering to buy my wine . They stated that twelve seventy five were a reputable wine company as they traded / listed on Live X and as such had passed the stringent due diligence interrogation that LiveX carries out " the third party if I sold my wine would get their fee from twelve seventy five ,the price quoted by twelve seventy five was after whatever fee they paid to the third party had been deducted .is this all kosher / above board ? Is it normal practice for third parties to circulate portfolios to Live X companies ? Could I do this myself without them ? If listed on Live X does that give a company credibility by virtue they have passed " Live X due diligence process " . Thanks

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  15. Anon. Please see this comment from Justin Gibb of Liv-ex:

    'I am afraid I know nothing about the valuation process described below, nor the trading process (which I am not sure I understood from the description below). Liv-ex, as you know, offer various services to the wholesale trade. The two that your correspondent might be interested in, are as follows;

    Member of Liv-ex:

    Members of Liv-ex meet certain requirements as set by the Liv-ex Membership Committee. Trading members are permitted to buy and sell wine on Liv-ex in accordance with the exchange’s standard rules, as drawn up and overseen by the Liv-ex Membership Committee. Neither Liv-ex, nor the Membership Committee, perform any role with regards to oversight of members’ activity outside of the exchange.

    Prices from Liv-ex:

    Companies using prices from Liv-ex have subscribed under license to publish our market leading fine wine data products. Users of this badge have subscribed to the Liv-ex Professional or Liv-ex Enterprise feed. This data is not and should not be relied upon as being investment advice. Use of this badge does not signify that the company is a member of Liv-ex.



    This latter bit might be (?) what they are referring to (not sure where the number 80 came from) and acts as a marker of the best price to be found in the market. Private collectors can of course use Cellar Watch www.cellar-watch.com to carry out some free price checks and to value their portfolios directly from the wholesale market, via our database.



    Best

    Justin'

    Anon: Frankly the process you describe using a third party and Twelve Seventy Five Ltd sounds very dubious to me, especially as you were cold called. The process might be better employed to value flying pigs.

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  16. Mr Budd, this company has moved to Essex now and are sending unwanted invoices for three hundred pounds for a so called wine club! Is this another con to get more money out of me as they have not kept their original promise of making money out of the wine I purchased which I cannot seem to find anywhere on cellar watch on liv-ex! Your help would be appreciated?

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  17. Anon. Please email me one of the wine club invoices. Assuming you didn't agree to join this wine club, I suggest you bin these invoices and tell Twelve-By-Seventy-Five Ltd that their wine club is of no interest and that you do not wish to receive any more invoices.

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  18. Mr Budd, I will get all the info together and send to your email but what happens if I have been sold a wine as an investment wine? But is clearly not a wine that has any track history of going up in price and have been miss sold on that basis. What are the legalities behind this as some companies have been shut down for such fraud in the past i am sure reading from your blog page? I am seriously concerned that this has happened to me. I will get all the paperwork together and send over.

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  19. Anon. Please send paperwork, otherwise I will need to delete your comment.

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  20. What is your email?

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  21. Twelve-By-Seventy-Five14 April 2016 at 15:47

    Dear Mr Budd and Annon,

    Firstly having read the above comments we must inform you that there is no wine club but a membership scheme that has been introduced to benefit our clients should they 'choose' to become members.

    There is no obligation to become a member, however if they decide to then there are a range of benefits which include the following;

    - A trip to Bordeaux once a year
    - Reduced buying and selling costs
    - Direct contact with the directors between 8am and 11pm
    - online portfolio management account

    Our clients have had a positive response to this membership so it comes to our suspicion that these allegations that have been made may possibly not be a client but a competitor with hidden agenda. It would be interesting to see should you receive the invoices and we would like to make it publicly open to everyone that if there are any clients that wish to not be apart of Twelve-By-Seventy-Five then they do not have to be and we would happily part company.

    We are in contact with all of our clients on a regular basis, which is why these comments have come by our surprise and not one of our clients have raised any issues with ourselves.

    Many Thanks
    Directors of Twelve-By-Seventy-Five




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    1. Directors of Twelve-By-Seventy-Five

      Thank you for your message I have received a copy of one of your invoices from anon (note spelling). This is an unwanted invoice for £300 – 'membership fee'. Although you may not have received complaints I certainly have and there is no reason to believe that it comes from one of your competitors.

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  22. Twelve-By-Seventy-Five15 April 2016 at 12:57

    Dear Mr Budd and Anon, (note correction)

    Thank you for your reply. We as a business would like to make this point very clear to our existing clients and potential clients.

    Our business consists of all our clients having a membership with us. Should any client or potential client not decide to embrace the membership then we would happily exit current clients out of the market should they not be happy or for potential clients it would not be advisable to become a client of Twelve-By-Seventy-Five.

    For the attention of Anon then please see our contact number below, which you can call us on to exit you from the market due to your concerns so we can part company.

    Many Thanks

    Twelve-By-Seventy-Five
    0207 352 2773

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  23. 'for potential clients it would not be advisable to become a client of Twelve-By-Seventy-Five.' Very sound advice.....

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  24. Indeed - was cold called today, I thought he seemed a bit cagey when I was trying to get into details. Thank you. Have wasted enough time on this one.

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