tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post8135454834518912880..comments2023-11-08T06:40:36.804+00:00Comments on investdrinks (blog): Sanderson Forbes Ltd – another vanished wine investment company?Jim's Loirehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06696024920441263899noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-20519915387878097882013-09-06T18:10:20.862+01:002013-09-06T18:10:20.862+01:00Does anyone have any further news concerning the f...Does anyone have any further news concerning the fraud investigation being conducted at the moment regarding the conduct of Sanderson Forbes ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-82562611478011146212013-06-12T18:51:13.622+01:002013-06-12T18:51:13.622+01:00Are we to draw the conclusion from Shakeshafts sil...Are we to draw the conclusion from Shakeshafts silence that they charge the 15% on top of the wine they have already marked up. I believe the WIA should investigate this and get to the bottom of it or at least make a statement on it. To my mind it must surely constitute a material mis-representation, or am I totally missing something?<br /><br />From the WIA code;<br /><br />The Aims of the Association<br />1. To seek to safeguard the general public against fraud, malpractice and MISREPRESENTATION.Wine Merchantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-47964461554654601372013-06-07T06:42:07.493+01:002013-06-07T06:42:07.493+01:00Anon. I can only suggest that you contact James Te...Anon. I can only suggest that you contact James Temple at EHD bond to see whether your wine is stored in their bond. You should also file a complaint with ActionFraud.Jim's Loirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06696024920441263899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-30080867262379915842013-06-07T06:41:44.263+01:002013-06-07T06:41:44.263+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jim's Loirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06696024920441263899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-13000978363513298122013-06-06T23:00:04.172+01:002013-06-06T23:00:04.172+01:00Hello , Can some one please tell me how I can find...Hello , Can some one please tell me how I can find out about my investment with Sanderson Forbes, I am a pensioner, I was told off the guy that sold me the wine ANTHONY SAVVAS That I could make a 11% profit a year I have lost my life time savings to this scam can someone please helpAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-37674933764221589342013-06-06T15:35:39.189+01:002013-06-06T15:35:39.189+01:00Anon 6th of June,
Excellent reply and certainly m...Anon 6th of June,<br /><br />Excellent reply and certainly moving the debate forwards, spread margins are clear and absolutely straightforward, however it is irrelevant to the Shakeshaft debate. Vin-X do not operate a spread, they offer managed wine portfolios with an up-front fee of 15%.<br /><br />My extremely simple addition to Wine Merchants initial question, was that Shakeshaft cannot claim he only charges a 15% margin to his clients if he charges 15% on top of a wine he has already marked up. He should disclose the mark up and the 15% to his investors if he is as transparent as he says he is.<br /><br />I really hope and want to believe that Vin-X only charge 15% over the price they pay for wine and look forward to Shakeshaft ending this debate today, with the right answer.<br /><br />If Vin-X have mistakenly omitted this information, they must immediately write to all of their investors informing them they were mislead and offer a full refund plus statutory interest. <br /><br />If sadly this is the case then no doubt it will result in Vin-X's expulsion from the WIA.<br /><br />Please Mr Shakeshaft end this today.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-63004762206006619762013-06-06T14:47:41.820+01:002013-06-06T14:47:41.820+01:00To Anonymous 5 June 15.02
Your response is intere...To Anonymous 5 June 15.02<br /><br />Your response is interesting, but doesn't really include any specific examples relating to actual companies, merely sweeping generalisations!<br /><br />Here are some facts:<br />Bordeaux Index Livetrade as of the time of my writing this comment:<br />"Pavie 2003: We Buy @ £1,420/We Sell @ £1,750"<br />That, as a matter of mathematical fact, is a difference (or markup, whichever you prefer) of 23.24%! It is reasonable to refer to this buying and selling system as one method of what you call 'broking'. This is nothing against Bordeaux Index, it is a similar model to that operated by a number of the biggest merchants - which is likely the reason WHY they are the biggest merchants!<br /><br />The Wine Investment Fund (TWIF) charge private investors a subscription fee of 5% AND an annual charge of 1.5% per annum AND 20% of returns at maturity.<br /><br />EVERY single Negociant in Bordeaux charges a flat 20% margin on wines upon EP release (of which a very small percent goes to the Courtier). Are THEY overcharging?<br /><br />Also, your "average investment case" is valued at £5,000! This is a highly debatable 'average'.<br /><br />This tirade is going to become extremely boring if you continue to angle an arguement towards margins, which appear to be the least of the questions Mr Shakeshaft should be answering to (unless of course the wine already has a hefty margin before the fee).<br /><br />May I take a moment to remind everyone that there is another aricle on this site where someone claiming to be an ex-employee of Bordeaux Fine Wines (not the first) posted yesterday on their 80% markups - which are clearly reflected in the company accounts. Kenneth Gunlach's behaviour makes Peter Shakeshaft look like Nelson Mandela by comparison.<br /><br />http://investdrinks-blog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/wwwduedilcom-useful-resource-eg-giving.html#comment-formAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-9972251721308937482013-06-05T15:02:50.880+01:002013-06-05T15:02:50.880+01:00Sorry Anon 5th of June but overcharging to cover a...Sorry Anon 5th of June but overcharging to cover admin costs is the heart of the issue. The industry norm for wine broking is 10%, download BI's accounts, read them it is pretty clear and simple. Their admin costs are around 6m.<br /><br />15% is a massive margin for an investment company, most funds charge 1.5% per annum and a 10-15% performance fee. In the past this was 2 & 20%. Storage costs around £20 a case including unlimited insurance, that’s 0.4% on an average investment case!<br /><br />Until Shakeshaft discloses Vin-X's markup, then how do we know Shakeshaft is one of the good guys? They maybe exactly the same as the rest of the cold calling wine investment sales rooms. Shakeshaft can end this debate very easily, yet he fails to respond to this important question when he has so vocally dealt with every other issue.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-9214433884750311932013-06-05T12:38:34.760+01:002013-06-05T12:38:34.760+01:00Anon. I should make it clear that I did not 'b...Anon. I should make it clear that I did not 'bring' up BI it was a comment by another anonymous.Jim's Loirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06696024920441263899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-16268856565279011032013-06-05T11:20:38.462+01:002013-06-05T11:20:38.462+01:00I would firstly like to state that I am NOT Peter ...I would firstly like to state that I am NOT Peter Shakeshaft or anyone who works for/is associated with Vin-x.<br /><br />I must say though that it's slightly harsh to state that Bordeaux Index's 'cost of goods sold' is 88% - suggesting that their margin is 12% - and that a markup of 'at least' 15% is unjustifiable. Let's just say that the markup is a round 15%, is that clear profit for Vin-x or are there 'costs' involved to be considered after that? The Wiki definition of COGS is: "...Costs include all costs of purchase, costs of conversion and other costs incurred in bringing the inventories to their present location and condition. Costs of goods made by the business include material, labor, and allocated overhead...". I would hazard a guess that the books Jim's referring to for BI have taken into account plenty of 'costs' after their margin.<br /><br />So if BI just sell wine and then have no further responsibilities towards that case/client and have a 'margin of 12%', what is the issue with a company charging 15% and offering other services to the client. Do Vin-x offer free storage with the 15%?<br /><br />Don't get me wrong, I think that Mr Shakeshaft is a stubborn self-obsessed human, with an unpopular reputation which will continue to precede him moving forwad. I also don't like Vin-x's/WIA's stance on cold calling, which clearly has absolutely no place in wine or any other investment market. BUT, I think attacking their margin for the sake of it is clutching at straws slightly. The bottom line is that you've got Bordeaux Fine Wines discerningly charging markups around 50% for wine, with the evidence littered all over recent articles and comments on this very site - so if we're going to talk about 'excessive margins' let's turn the attention to the real crooks?!??<br /><br />I find it interesting that you bring up BI Jim, as they likely make a significant portion of the aforementioned margin by supplying a number of the spurious companies that get air time on this very site. Not that I'm singling them out or anything - we all know Farr and F+R etc will also supply anyone who wants to buy. I just think it's interesting!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-28985432618169827032013-06-03T12:06:44.490+01:002013-06-03T12:06:44.490+01:00I am sure Mr Shakeshaft will claim it is confident...I am sure Mr Shakeshaft will claim it is confidential business information and something he cannot possibly divulge. A review of BI accounts shows COGS at around 88%. Surely a markup of more than 15% would have grave consequences for Vin-X investors. Perhaps as an investment expert Mr Shakeshaft would educate us on how paying more helps his investors.<br /><br />I would love to see Goldman claim that by selling shares for more than they are worth helps their investors because it means Goldman make more money and stay in business, therefore protecting their business. Rather than admit Wine Investment through cold calling and advertising is a flawed business model which will fail. <br /><br />Wine investment as a sideline for a large successful merchant is a realistic business model.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-29297538164071479002013-05-31T22:29:43.257+01:002013-05-31T22:29:43.257+01:00We will have to await his reply.We will have to await his reply.Jim's Loirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06696024920441263899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-24598933600082829892013-05-31T21:33:20.730+01:002013-05-31T21:33:20.730+01:00So no reply from Mr Shakeshaft. Does this mean tha...So no reply from Mr Shakeshaft. Does this mean that vin-x charge 15% AND load an undeclared margin into their price when selling to a client? Oh dear, very naughty.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-50136138845108765882013-05-30T22:18:09.060+01:002013-05-30T22:18:09.060+01:00Mr Shakeshaft,
Being insulting, obnoxious and dis...Mr Shakeshaft,<br /><br />Being insulting, obnoxious and dismissive doesn't address the very serious concerns the industry has about you. You claim to be absolutely transparent and that you have the highest standards in the industry yet you continue to evade answering such a simple question about your prices? I have read the WIA and your website, neither answer that question other than a reference to 15% upfront fees.<br /><br />Perhaps I can ask you a simple question in a way, which is easier for you to understand and answer;<br /><br />If you purchase a case of wine for 100, what do you sell it for? <br /><br /><br />Wine Merchantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-15506662790745715222013-05-27T17:17:22.330+01:002013-05-27T17:17:22.330+01:00Clarification: 'well said' was not my comm...Clarification: 'well said' was not my comment but a comment from an anon that was deleted in error. I have reposted the comment to make this clearer.<br /><br />I do, however, rather like the idea of a 'ubsurd argument'. Jim's Loirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06696024920441263899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-88480250100746605232013-05-27T17:13:44.088+01:002013-05-27T17:13:44.088+01:00A comment from an anon which was deleted in error:...A comment from an anon which was deleted in error: Anon:'well said' Jim's Loirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06696024920441263899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-56258767653801704312013-05-27T13:39:59.496+01:002013-05-27T13:39:59.496+01:00I think we are taking at cross purposes here Wine ...I think we are taking at cross purposes here Wine Merchant. Do you or do you not make a profit/ margin out of selling wine ? Yes or no ?<br /><br />We do and clearly state it on an invoice/ contract note for transparency.<br /><br />If you do not then you are a fool which I doubt if you have been running your own business for 20 years as you state.<br /><br />We do NOT charge on the back end of a transaction and the client has good title to the wine as set out on the Wine Investment Association's website which we have passed after being audited by Mazzars.<br /><br />Have you read the WIA's website ? If you had of done you would not have asked the question in the first place. <br /><br />Jim whe you stated "well said" what exactly were you refering too ? <br /><br />In regard to Masters of Wine not being good business people I think that is an afront and you should take it back for there are many excellent MW's who could teach a lot of us how to succeed in the wine trade.<br /><br />In regard to my position and the fact you would join if I left places you in a very silly position as firstly you have no idea what it has taken to get the WIA even to this point whilst you have done NOTHING for 20 years and secondly if you are basing your membership on one individual then frankly that is pathetic. As with every Association there are those within that have conflicting views to yourself but you deploy reasoned argument to get your point across. That is called democracy. <br /><br />Jim would you care to comment again such as "well said" or are you leaving such trite comment for ubsurd argument. Really<br /><br />Peter<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-26694402205453853122013-05-24T21:39:01.519+01:002013-05-24T21:39:01.519+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jim's Loirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06696024920441263899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-42499145232252037112013-05-23T13:27:54.168+01:002013-05-23T13:27:54.168+01:00Dear Mr Shakeshaft,
Thank you for answering my qu...Dear Mr Shakeshaft,<br /><br />Thank you for answering my question so perfectly.<br /><br />You have absolutely and unequivocally answered the only question I really wanted an answer to. Thank you for confirming that the only way your business survives is to front load your clients to cover your overheads and marketing campaign and self promotion.<br /><br />It is utter nonsense to suggest that by front-loading your prices you somehow protect your investors. If you fail, your investors will end up with wine they paid too much for. If you survive your investors will own wine they paid too much for.<br /><br />The only way to run a proper investment company is to sell at the lowest market price and deliver the wine into the customers own account, somewhere like Vinotheque, then they are free to sell their wine to whoever and your survival is irrelevant. If you have done a good job for them, like any other broker then they will come to you to market the wine when they are ready to sell. If you sell through contract notes then I am sure the contract could have a clause they must sell through you or you are given a license for 5 years.<br /><br />I really hope you do not buy back the front loaded wine from your clients, to show them a quick turn and lead them into a bigger deal. Perhaps one of your sales team would care to comment on 'Teeming and Lading' practices? I am sure you don't do such a thing, confirmation however is welcome.<br /><br />If you resigned, we would join as would, I am sure many others. Masters of Wine are a good resource, but they cannot chair a board of forthright bombastic businessmen, however much integrity they have.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Wine Merchantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-15902085080326094922013-05-22T21:28:05.568+01:002013-05-22T21:28:05.568+01:00Edited response from anon: In this typically self ...Edited response from anon: In this typically self promoting and spurious reply, Peter Shakeshaft has not answered a single question about his business practices posed to him by the previous poster.Jim's Loirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06696024920441263899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-77604033404223433082013-05-22T21:14:51.491+01:002013-05-22T21:14:51.491+01:00Comment by anon (Peter Shakeshaft) that was delete...Comment by anon (Peter Shakeshaft) that was deleted in error while using an iPad:<br /><br />Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Sanderson Forbes Ltd – another vanished wine inves...": <br /><br />Wine Merchant<br /><br />Thanks for your constructive comments.<br /><br />As members of the WIA we are obliged to adhere to their rules in regard to outbound calls however as you quite rightly noticed our PPC budget is extensive.<br /><br />In regard to up front payment, firstly Vin-X clearly state on its client invoices the payment terms and breakdown. Invoices are prepared in a similar way to a contract note. Personally I do not agree with payment being taken at the back end of a contract as such practice is unsustainable to company's and often highlight my concern in that practice. <br /><br />I am not prepared to (understandably I hope) give away our business model but suffice to say that Vin-X has undergone and passed the Mazaars audit (as part of the WIA aplication process) You should join and see how stringent that is !<br /><br />Lastly in regard to the WIA. Jim Budd knows for some time that my wish is that once the WIA is self sustainable then I would like to stand down as a director. (Jim would you be so kind as to confirm that point) I have always maintained that the WIA is bigger than any one individual. I am thankful that those involved brought differing skill sets and experiences to aid the creation of the WIA. I am heartened by the fact that our Chairman (A Master of Wine) is a man of unquestionable integrity who has listened, has researched and been thorough in understanding the complexity of self regulation. I am pleased too that it has independent people to sit on the Independent adjudication Panel so the directors do not have the power to sit in judgement of their peers.<br /><br />You must agree that we have waited too long for some entity to come along and regulate our industry. In the end we had to do it ourselves. <br /><br />My personal thoughts are that the more Company's join, the quicker the WIA can pay for an independent board. <br /><br /><br />Wine Investor why don't you join? You must sell investment grade wine to your clients? <br /><br />BTW On a personal note I prefer Jim on the outside of the WIA as he can do much more good observing, highlighting and critique the industry without the burden of corporate responsibility.<br /><br />Peter<br />Jim's Loirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06696024920441263899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-48823326937377692842013-05-22T14:09:21.383+01:002013-05-22T14:09:21.383+01:00Thanks anon. You make an intriguing suggestion for...Thanks anon. You make an intriguing suggestion for a new board for the WIA, although I'm not convinced that it is a position for 'our dear maverick friend'.Jim's Loirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06696024920441263899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-10929279366643893512013-05-22T13:53:20.898+01:002013-05-22T13:53:20.898+01:00Mr Shakeshaft,
Thank you for your respectful and...Mr Shakeshaft, <br /><br />Thank you for your respectful and considered reply. <br /><br />Do you cold, cold call? as in telephone book? or do you buy profiled lists from a reputable source<br /><br />Do you sell investments to non-high net worths or non-sophisticated investors.<br /><br />Do you front load commission?<br /><br />Do you charge a disclosed sales commission?<br /><br />Do you disclose the % of sales commission paid to your salesteam?<br /><br />Just for fun, how much would you pay for Margaux 2005 today and how much do you think it will be worth in 10 years, in sterling in bond to the trade.<br /><br />I am looking forward to reading your accounts, based on your costs and GM on wine, your sales need to be in excess of 10m to stay afloat, buy every bottle of wine without front loading commission.<br /><br />I commend your efforts to get the WIA up and running, I think if you resigned along with the other founding members, appointed a chartered accountant, a couple of masters of wine and a couple of ex FSA or city compliance officers and a wise old owl, maybe even our dear maverick friend Mr Budd, I feel a lot more people will join and it would be far more credible.Wine Merchantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-43033382734292029852013-05-21T22:32:29.420+01:002013-05-21T22:32:29.420+01:00Anon. Once again I can't post your latest comm...Anon. Once again I can't post your latest comment without some backing for your news please.Jim's Loirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06696024920441263899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1567042805993048802.post-71244053600478644672013-05-20T12:16:06.076+01:002013-05-20T12:16:06.076+01:00Letting Peter Shakeshaft police any sort of invest...Letting Peter Shakeshaft police any sort of investment industry would be like asking Timmy Mallett to to run the economy. Why doesn't he just pipe down? He's clearly unqualified to talk about either wine or investment: He knows nothing about either subject, so why does he pretend he does? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com